Intro 0:00
Hey welcome to another episode of Ecom Experiences a podcast where ecommerce marketing leaders who want to grow and scale their brands faster. Join us as we interview some of the smartest brand founders and marketing leaders in the industry. Explore the lessons they learned discover the keys to their success, discuss what excites them most about the future.
Samir Balwani 0:28
I had Samir Balwani here, host of Ecom Experiences where we talk to brand founders and marketing leaders about their experiences growing brands. This episode is brought to you by QRY QRYas a paid media agency that helps brands balanced brand awareness and performance marketing, to drive predictable and profitable growth. To learn more about how we can help you visit weareqry.com I'm really excited for our guests today have Jen and Alex, the founders of Jaxon Lane, men's skincare brand that has been winning GQ and Esquire awards like crazy. Thank you guys for coming. And I'm so excited for our conversation. Thanks for having us. So let's get started with the easy questions. Tell us about Jaxon Lane and what you guys have been doing?
Alex Penfold 1:11
Well, Jen and I are a husband and wife founder team. We started definitely in 2018, when when we have a friend from Korea that was bringing sheet masks, you know, back by the suitcase, basically giving them the gym, and I was not a big skincare person back then. But I just found myself putting on these sheet masks and, and sort of, you know, notice for the first time, I think what your skin could look like if you had a good consistent skincare routine. And and you know, just like gents coming home find me putting on masks, and
Jen Yu 1:49
I would come home Wednesday afternoon and this man, we weren't married back then but would be in bed, hanging out with Sheena. And I'm like, What are you doing?
Alex Penfold 1:57
Like, I'm useless, I did start work back then about five o'clock in the morning. So it's sort of like the, you know, it was
Samir Balwani 2:05
your wind down, right.
Alex Penfold 2:09
But some of the sheet masks, you know, that were available, were one piece and, you know, primarily made for women's spaces, which are a little bit smaller. So the eyes were too small for me. And if I ever had any facial hair, they were just hanging off of the beard, you know, off of facial hair. And so we're sitting there like, well, you know, there needs to be something that's designed with men's faces in mind. And, and we, you know, Jen knew about, you know, a specific kind of sheet mask, a hydrogel sheet masks, which was higher quality than the cotton ones that you typically see in the market. And so we set off to Korea to try to design sort of the best sheet masks, not only, you know, for men, but for the entire marketplace. And, you know, bring it to market. And so we did that and the pro mask was born. Making it clear, you know, because I think men don't exactly stop to ask questions about skincare. So we wanted to show stopper from the get go and hero products that would you know, speak loudly to men walking past the retail aisle and have been stopped and asked questions about what is this because it's clearly intended for me. And that was our first part we were going to market with one product. And and then, you know, based off of the success of the bromance, you know, I think we you know, we interviewed by the Wall Street Journal, the story being not only are men doing skincare now, but they're also doing sheet masks, and just the incredible that they have and sort of, you know, trying to, you know, really get down to what exactly is going on in the skincare market with men now taking an interest in skincare. And since then we've you know, we've kind of taken this approach like we did with the bromance in terms of solving a problem you know, which was this facial hair by coming up with a two piece sheet mask so you can just wear the top if you have the beard and then wanting to do the same you know, with sunscreen and you know, face wash like travel friendly face wash that you can take on the airplane. That is it, no liquids so TSA compliant with a powder, enzyme cleanser, facewash the sunscreen is you know, has no white cast and no oily greasy residues so you don't feel like you're only going to wear this item when you go to the beach, you're going to wear it it's just when you're driving in your car or going into the office and and really just trying to change the way that men think about you know, skincare when they apply it and how they apply it. And I guess here we are in our sixth year now and and you know, growing every year and you know dealing with new challenges.
Samir Balwani 4:58
The challenges never end right is one after the other, and they're always surprising and what you deal with, it's never what you expect to deal with. It's always something new. So, so before we talk challenges, because you know, we will what? Tell me? You know, Jen, I'm so curious, what's your favorite part about being a brand founder?
Jen Yu 5:21
Oh, so I, um, I come from like a pretty, you know, rigorous and standard corporate career. So Deloitte, Google, you know, management, consulting, finance. And I think it's the, you know, I think growing up, I always thought that I would want to do the corporate ladder. And I think having my own business and last six years, even though it's like the highs are very high, the lows are very low, it's being able to be your own boss and have autonomy, and sort of just make progress without being hindered by bureaucracy, politics, like all these different things just been incredibly liberating, you feel a lot of freedom, I mean, with the freedom comes crashing. But, but it's a different kind, right? I mean, it just
Samir Balwani 6:09
feel it feels good. It's so interesting, you say that the crushing responsibility because it's true, it's like, you know, I did the corporate world for a while as an American Express before I started the agency, and I always laugh about it, because when you made a decision before, it was never truly your decision, that you had a lot of input. And there's always someone giving you, like air cover or supporting you in some way. And now, if you make a bad decision, there is literally no one else to blame other than you. And it's, it's it can be really debilitating at times, because then you just have a hard time making decisions. And so, so talk to me about how you overcome that I'm so cute, especially so my parents are business owners together too. And so I've watched the, when they like, parents working together, husband and wife duo is working together. My family, my sister also owns her own business. So our dinner tables are hilarious, because it's p&l conversations and receivables and things like that. But I'm so curious, with both of you guys working together, how have you made that work? How, like, what what has made that a success for you guys?
Jen Yu 7:24
Yeah, I think, you know, obviously, being a married couple, and working together comes with a lot of challenges. But I think, for us, it's also an opportunity for us to spend a lot of time together and doesn't take us away from each other, or we have kids too. So taking a word does not take us away from our families, right. And being an entrepreneur, as you know, it's like you're working, even when you're not working. You don't want vacation, like when you're out of office. Alright, so I think that's been really nice. And in terms of division of scope, we actually have very, very different backgrounds. So Alex is former medical device sales person, and his history has been in sales. And for me, it's been more finance and you know, that that part of the equation? So I think we so we actually have very naturally different ghosts. And so that's I think, worked out really well. For us. I think personality wise, we're also more different, like if we go to a trade show or something like I don't want to be the personal attorney. And he loves that right? works. Yeah,
Samir Balwani 8:28
that's great. You guys are good. Like, I've been out walking around talking to people, I can't do this anymore. That's awesome. So so I know, we touched on it a little bit. But let's jump into some of these challenges that you guys are seeing. So every founder is dealing with challenges every comprehend is seeing challenges. My thought process on this is if you're not seeing challenges, you're actually not growing, you're just too comfortable in where you are. And so I know you guys have some awesome growth goals that you are hitting every year. And I'm excited that we've been talking through a lot of them, but what are the things that as you look ahead, as you look ahead to this year, that you're like, man, we're gonna have to deal with that. Otherwise, we're not gonna hit our goals.
Alex Penfold 9:16
I think, you know, for us as a small brand, you know, a small team you know, with the a lot of the changes that have happened in the advertising metrics over the last couple of years with with Facebook meta tics, tock, you know, even with Amazon, you know, there is a pressure to diversify your business go omni channel, and then, you know, how do you successfully build retail, how do you successfully grow your DTC and how do you successfully grow like, in our case, with this world on Amazon, all of these three channels with such a small team with while actually, you know, really succeeding at each one Of the, the, you know, different pockets that we're in. And, you know, you know, we are, you know, we're in retail was Saks Fifth Avenue where, you know, we're, we're in some larger big box stores, but you know, really having a team to go into each one of these stores and educate the staff and, and even sell through on the floor sometimes and do this type of thing, and scaling that side of doing that successfully. Because it's a great way for people to discover your brand outside of paid advertising and pay media. But then, you know, selling into a retailer is, is, you know, essentially the easy part, it's the selling through and, like, being successful, and having a, you know, lasting five year plus relationship with these retailers is, you know, the biggest part of that. So everybody's saying, Oh, it's so hard to be, you know, like, the metrics aren't there on matter anymore. So you need to go into retail, but that, you know, that isn't that is not easy to succeed in retail, either. Having a team, you know, to support you as a small business as a kind of indie beauty brand that we are. And doing that smartly, while maintaining profitability. You know, without outside investment has been, you know, I guess the sort of like, you know, the challenge of the last five years, and it will be continued to be the challenge of 2024 2025. Well, and
Samir Balwani 11:29
the interesting thing about that is, that's just the advertising side, right, like, then there's the product development, logistics operations side of all of it that comes after that as well. So being a small team and having to do, like, there's just things that need to be done to keep a business going. And then on top of that layering on the marketing side of things, so as in how
Alex Penfold 11:52
do we don't get bogged down in the operations too much. And we can focus on the big picture, new product development, you know, exciting initiatives and different things that we, you know, want to work on? And then how do we, you know, outsource and delegate? The tasks that do has an awful lot, you know, like, the bosses. Yeah, we do much on.
Samir Balwani 12:17
Yeah, and on the omni channel perspective, so having to be in retail and direct to consumer and online is a lot. And I think you said it really well around. How do you do it and do it? Well, because, you know, it's a premium brand. It's a luxury brand, you have to you have to appear? Yeah. As people expect you to appear and you can't not. So,
Jen Yu 12:38
for us, I think we've had not the luxury, but it's, you know, sort of been a double edged sword, right. Like, we have been doing this since 2018. And we have not taken on outside capital. And so I think we've, we've been on the channel since day one, because, you know, we had some early press and celebrities and the retailers came on in that process. And so we've had the learning experience to and the ability to sort of grow slowly, I think, for the power the brands and competitors. And friends who are founders we've seen over the years, like the number of people that took on early funding, early funding, and then you know, they're just piling money into driving top of funnel unprofitable, you're doing that or retail, it's like, a lot of these brands aren't here anymore, because it's not sustainable. Right. So I think for us, we're sort of like, by choice and semi force, because we didn't go through funding to to do things slowly and thoughtfully. I think that was, you know, probably not the right, right, that at the time, five, six years ago, people thought we were crazy for not raising and doing the whole thing. And then now I think everyone's like, Oh, it's it's like hot to be profitable now. Right. So
Samir Balwani 13:43
anyway, so yeah, healthy business. That's fine.
Jen Yu 13:49
Like invoked out, right. Yeah,
Samir Balwani 13:51
yeah. It's interesting, because like, as a media agency, that's the conversation that we have all the time, right, we will have a conversation with our clients and say, Hey, are we driving revenue or profitability? And what do you want? Because you can't have both you get to choose, and it's revenue growth and profitability. Yeah, exactly. And so yeah, I mean, last year, and the year before that, it was revenue growth, that all expenses, right, like thought top line was all that mattered. And it's been a hard left turn into All right, bottom line actually matters now. And it's great to it's a struggle for a lot of brands, because if profitability matters, you can't be on sale as much as you were previously. But you've trained your customers to always expect you to be on sale. And so you pull back on your sale to improve profitability, which hurts your campaigns, which hurts your brand growth, which makes it even harder than you we have a lot of brands that then sweep back to Alright, well, we'll go back on sale and it's like, you know, this this never ending pendulum of growth. So yeah, I think it's a good place for you guys to be to not have to be in that situation to even start it
Alex Penfold 14:57
and also like reflecting back now because we didn't take outside funding, we did grow more slowly, we did not release, you know, five or six products on launch day, right. And so, in, in launching the one or two products that we do launch per year, we, you know, we spend, like nine to 12 months developing these formulations. And so every product that we bring to market has been a hero product, in terms of the formulation and the quality of it. So, you know, retaining the customer in a way has been, you know, more successful for us. Just, I think just based on the quality of the formulation, so, you know, because we, we did not build this brand on marketing. Because we didn't have the capital to push it like that. So, one thing we did have was excellent formulations, we make everything out in South Korea, it's fantastic. You know, manufacturers out there that really, you know, have been able to put products with the texture and viscosity, that is really unique, I think, within the US marketplace. And, and, you know, the flip side of the coin is that, you know, it's helped us now here five years later, six years later, with, with taking the time to build out, you know, product line, which is not, we don't have 20 skews, we've got seven. And so, you know, each one of those ones we do market, you know, it helps us with people coming back.
Samir Balwani 16:36
It's interesting, too, because on the retail side, that's probably helpful. And I'm kind of curious if you would agree with this, in that, there's like, almost two strategies on the retail side, where it's, I created 100 products, and the retailer takes a handful of them, or I created a few really good products, and the retailer is excited to to take all of them. Has that kind of leaned into your strategy, as you're looking at that.
Alex Penfold 17:00
Yeah, I think so. Our goal, we you know, building out a skincare line was to have, you know, replace basically all the products that we were using within our our bathroom, right? You know, if we were using a, you know, a face wash, serum, or moisturizer, or sunscreen as a baseline, we had to replace all of those with products that we would prefer to use, rather than any other products that, you know, are testing or sourcing or, or, you know, figuring out, and because it is a smaller line there, you know, with with certain retailers, like if you go with a Sephora or Ulta depression or like fill like a section of shelf, right? Yeah. So, several years, we weren't even able to do that. And so there was always like, I'm taking everything, because, you know, we're doing that. And now as we launch our seventh product, we're launching two more this here are three more this year. And there is there are starting to be these discussions now about Okay, so, you know, what do you recommend, what, what's the hero product. And so that has been led us to really have discussions around every single product needs to be a hero product, you know, in terms of launching it from here, bringing something unique to the marketplace, with an extraordinary, extraordinary quality, that will get people excited to you know, buy more things from your brand. And so, you know, we've now reached I think that that turning point here where we're really thinking about, you know, what are the retailers going to start, you know, talking to us about in terms of if you are bringing five, six products into a new retailer, which ones are they going to be and what the reason for selecting those particular ones
Samir Balwani 18:43
Yeah, that's really interesting. And do you when you guys look at your DTC site and are looking at products? Are there standout products that you are like this is always going to be a hero product it's going to test it's going to stand the test of time and it just continues on that way.
Jen Yu 19:00
I think what we've found is that the bromance products we have not and also I have no right for it's just a quick pick me up those have I think to everyone's surprise really stood the test of time. I mean, the you know for us like we wanted to make a map that was amazing quality but really has to like it has to have an effect in one use for you to see glowing skin after you use it. And so I think, you know, the name is kitschy Some people love it. Some people hate it. But the product is really even our retail like been a best seller since the initiation right. So that's been great. I think our sunscreen, since we launched that super years ago has become like your product as well. And for that one that's interesting, because that was sort of I think in last year, we found that it was our foray into the women's space but when we started this, it was because we were making products for Alex because at the time the men's products on shelves were just bad right? Everything was quality, ugly packaging man fragrances which is bad for your skin. Everything's dyed black. I mean, it was just it was like a bit, you know, wasn't there for your skin. And so for us from day one, because I use women's skincare, when we make a product, it has to be better than even the best women's skincare. So for us quality has always been, like paramount, right? Not we're not competing with men's products competing with that category. And so all of our products are fragrance free, etc. So even though it's marketed to men, it's really like the product itself is gender neutral. And we noticed that this year, our sunscreen, which is SPF 50, no white cast has really like half our customers are female. And so that's been an interesting learning for us. So those three are probably our like biggest
Samir Balwani 20:36
heroes. That's really interesting. That's the it's kind of I love your product philosophy, because as a marketer, I think the most frustrating thing is having a bad product. And everyone look at marketing and go, Hey, why isn't it selling, it's like, it's not a good product. So I do appreciate product diligence and focus on product.
Alex Penfold 21:05
Jump in, but unintended, you know, good thing that's happened to us with our sheep, and eye gel, and sunscreen, being our top three products at the moment is that the sunscreen really pops in the summer. And the sheet mask and eye gels are kind of perennial, top sellers, but then they're incredible stocking stuffers, and holiday presents around Christmas. And so the plan Friday to Christmas, really pushes out, you know, the gifting side of our thing. And so we've launched now into you know, we have a deluxe skincare set a Promax facial set, really nice presentable giftable holiday boxes and things like that. And but so it's really helped us, you know, having you know, the summer, which is a bit of a slow season actually really picks up for us, because that sunscreen really pops in the summer. And so you were able to really sell through kind of both year round, you know, with the product. That's
Samir Balwani 22:01
awesome, because it kind of evens out your cash flow, too. Right. Yeah, I think that that's the, you know, being bootstrapped. And I mean, even larger businesses, like, you know, the DTC darlings that we talked about, they don't go out of business because they stopped selling, it's because they ran out of cash flow, right. And so it's something to be considerate of, and it's awesome that you guys have found a natural way to manage your own cash flow through the seasons. So we talked a lot about challenges. Let's talk about things that are exciting. So what are you guys most excited about for the year to come?
Jen Yu 22:35
Well, we just came back from a trip to Korea last week. So we've spent the week there was our manufacturers, r&d labs. And just like sort of being there is like a focus on beauty and skincare is just, it's like, unlike anything I've you can find anywhere else. And like, you know, we used to live in LA. And people are very beautiful and care about how they look. But Korea's like, like 1 million times further, right. So I think being there and just being immersed in, like seeing what's popular there. Because usually what's popular there were like 10 to 20 years behind in the US, right? So you can kind of see what could be exciting things that might work here that you want to think about bring over here, right? So I think it was just really exciting to think about product development, like we're so we spent so much of our time doing operations and not that, you know, just having the time to go really like immerse yourself in product and innovation is like very exciting, because that's the you know, we're both very passionate about this category. We're first time entrepreneurs, like we didn't, you know, we did it, because we're, like passionate about this topic. So it's just nice, being able to focus on that first.
Alex Penfold 23:49
There's also thinking back to the launch of the roadmap, you know, the sheet mass design was many spaces in mind. You know, that was a new thing at the time sheet masks were just entering the US market at the time. You know, we're unisex to women, and there was nothing that was targeted towards men. Right. So that was a completely new idea. And that really drove a lot of the PR cycle at that time. And so then, you know, as we're on this trip, we've actually made an adjustment to an upcoming product launch in you know, coming out later this summer. And as a result of of kind of inspiration that we were getting from from the trip so you know, just trying to bring in new fresh ideas, cutting edge technology, and getting people excited about our product launches, you know, is what we look forward to.
Samir Balwani 24:43
I love it because it's like a trip can give you so much inspiration. You know, most people go on vacation and feel reenergized. You guys get to go and feel super inspired for the next round and product. What its gonna look like
Alex Penfold 24:54
yeah, we've all thought we've dug ourselves a bit of a hole and that we we have very creative product names. You know, rain or shine is out sunscreen, shaken wake is out powder, enzyme cleanser, you know, we have great names for all of our products. And so then every time we launch a new product, Jen and I have to sit down and like, you know, trademark is you the things that you run into then become, you know, its own thing. But then, at the same time, you know, we have a, you know, we have serious skincare, but you know, on personality about our brand that really has nice flavor to it, the end result.
Samir Balwani 25:34
I love it, because this conversation with you guys has shown both the glamorous side of being a brand founder and the unglamorous side of being a founder. And I think that that is I, I appreciate you guys, because you guys have such a great sense of humor about it such a passionate and inspiring viewpoint on what it means to bring a brand to market. So I'm gonna ask you my one last question, as we kind of close here. So I'd love to hear from both of you if that's okay. What advice would you give someone who wants to found a brand at love, both from like the finance person perspective and the sales perspective?
Jen Yu 26:15
I don't know if this is like, there might be people who disagree with this. But I think what I didn't realize because we went in like newbies blind with no support, we just had a passion for this product. I think we, you know, we never even had like, we never, for the first two or three years that we never thought about exit strategy, or this or that I think so many people coming in, have this idea that they're gonna come in, they're gonna grow this thing, sell it in five years, make a bunch of money. And I think the reality is, you know, more likely than not like, you have to kind of think about coming in, in it to be in it for the long haul. Like the idea of, especially in this like in the current, like, pop up on our ad environment. I think this idea of like having explosive growth in five years, without high capital on the selling end, for some crazy like valuation, I just don't think that's realistic. And maybe it's not even the right thing to do. Like, we go back to this idea of building a healthy business, right, like so. I think for us, like we sort of did this unintentionally, but I would say you know, people have to prepare for like the the work and the having no money that it's going to take to to make it to the final destination.
Samir Balwani 27:32
And I'm going to add on to that one little piece that I don't think you gave enough credit to yourselves in that, in that it's not only about the money but it's about the passion for good product. I think that the years of our I'm gonna go Ollie Express, bringing a bunch of stuff call it a day, we got a Shopify site, let's go. I think that's over and Jaxon Lanes commitment to product commitment to personality, what your brand stands for, is evident. And it's been evident for years and consistent for years. And so I think that that's another piece of, of, of, yeah, we're gonna slow down, it's gonna take longer, because you have to show that you have staying power. Yeah,
Jen Yu 28:12
no, you're absolutely right. I think it's like, and it's also I think, with the fact that we love doing this, you know, we talked about like, the corporate career versus this and what we love about it, it's like, it's these things that it's like your love for the work and the product. But even like the the, the sort of dirty ugly unfun side of being a founder, which is like honestly, like, most of it, you have to love enough to, to do it to do it for a sustained amount of time. So I think that's really important. We do genuinely, we'd love me, you know, we love doing this and stressful, but I love it. Yeah.
Alex Penfold 28:47
Alex, you're many different ways to answer this question. Funding comes to my price point, all these different, you know, what I mean? It's like, but, you know, here our product, PR, you know, the PR has been a huge part of our brand since the beginning. And the PR side, you know, our new product launches, our involvement, you know, with celebrities and different things that driven the PR behind the brand for a sustainable period over a long, long time. So having you know, the ability to keep engaging with editors and get them to keep writing about you has to have it has to be something appealing about your brand. That is more than just guess what I've just launched a moisturizer and so, you know, what is the extra flavor of your brand that that draws people to click on you when they're putting you in a roundup you know that you're fantastic, you know, what is the selling point beyond just just, you know, blending into the, you know, competition and nobody wanted to Then, the second thing too would be, ultimately what is, you know, as you grow as a brand, when you hit, you know, the four, the 5 million in revenue, what is your mass retail distribution strategies to get to the 15, to the 20 to $30 million in revenue, especially, you know, I think there used to be a time in DC where you could really scale a brand, you know, to that point. But, but now, you know, that there's, like, you know, you target a you and also in Sephora, you know, which one partners with you. So, that's going to determine your price point, and your go to market strategy and how you present your brand to the world. And, and, you know, the other small retailers you take on, do they fit into the image of, of, you know, you know, this, this larger retailer that you might have in mind on the future. And, you know, basically having a 510 year outlook for your brand, because you're not going to go straight in there out of the gate, you know, unless you're majorly connected in some way or, or a celebrity or so, you know, you need to kind of make decisions in the early days, that kind of lead you to, like, open the door to them when you're ready. And when you're ready, you know, will be different for everybody.
Jen Yu 31:21
Thank you. And that brings us back to the smears plan about like, the brands that would grow based on discounting. Yep.
Samir Balwani 31:29
If you do that, you can't be in a Sephora, there's no margin.
Jen Yu 31:35
You can't do it. Right. Like and, you know, retail is not, we're not gonna have you marking out your products, like when they marked on the products, right. So I mean, some of them don't work on the products very much. So I think these are all, you know, like the longevity is, is something to think about.
Samir Balwani 31:47
I think so. I Alex, I love your answer, because it aligns so perfectly with gents around this long term vision of things. And I agree, I think it's, it's at this stage now, where founders can't look at it in a year and be like, I'm out and five like, it's gonna take you five years to just even get feel like you're getting started it and like,
Jen Yu 32:07
I just thought we were like five years before we're like, Oh, thanks for clicking, like, every channel is like, at least operational and even. I mean, like we have things sort of in place, you know, so it takes a long time. Yeah,
Samir Balwani 32:19
yeah, to really fit into the product market to get that product market fit to really figure out what's going to work and yeah, I think it's awesome. I am excited about your guys's growth and I'm excited to see the brand everywhere. So, Jen, Alex, thank you so much for joining me if someone wants to go and purchase Jaxon Lane, where are they going?
Alex Penfold 32:42
jaxonlane.com. Or pick us up at sec. Do we love working with you
Samir Balwani 32:52
guys. All right, perfect. Thank you guys. I really appreciate it. Okay.
Outro 33:03
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