Intro 0:00

Hey welcome to another episode of Ecom Experiences a podcast where ecommerce marketing leaders who want to grow and scale their brands faster. Join us as we interview some of the smartest brand founders and marketing leaders in the industry. Explore the lessons they learned discover the keys to their success, discuss what excites them most about the future.

Samir Balwani 0:28

I had Samir Balwani here hosted Ecom Experiences where we talk to brand founders and marketing leaders about their experiences growing brands. This episode is brought to you by QRY. QRY is a paid media agency that helps brands balance brand awareness and performance marketing to drive predictable and profitable growth. To learn more about us visit weareqry.com. I'm really excited today I have Wayne Kulkin He's the founder of StreetTrends. We've parent company to P448, which is probably one of the coolest shoe brands that I have in my closet. I love it. I'm so excited to have you in. Thanks for joining us.

Wayne Kulkin 1:05

Oh, it's my pleasure. And I love your passion. Yeah,

Samir Balwani 1:09

it is part of our closet for sure. So when tell me more about you, you have an awesome history. I'd love for you to just share how you got to being a founder of StreetTrend.

Wayne Kulkin 1:24

Yeah, so kind of a crazy journey. I don't think anybody like wakes up and says like, you know what, I'm going to be the shoe business. But since I'm 16, I've been in the shoe business. And I started kind of by accident, I needed a job, I had a lie about my age, to say I was older than I was. And I worked in a shoe store, I'm trying to remember it was like when these mass market companies that don't exist anymore, it was called ch bakers. And, yeah, you just stood there. And you know, somebody came in and the store was so small, the size of a closet, and you bring them out the little shoe and it was like a job. And then it was kind of fun. Because at 16 there was really no supervision. Do what you asked, you could do your homework or, you know, it was in a mall, so people would come in. But at the end, there was like a regional director and the guy was really smart. And he came around and he said, like, oh, you seem to have a knack for this. So he taught me how to like run the little store. So I became like, manager, but while going to school playing basketball, you know. And it just found a way to make it work. And I did that for like, a year and a half. Then I went to a luxury shoe store. And interesting. This was an both in Manhattan Beach in Southern California. And this one was owned by this Korean gentleman. And they had, you know, at the time, really high end shoes. But it was like the most interesting experience because the gentleman didn't speak English. So I like got my Korean skills on language perspective. But it was really a fun story. Because back then, you know, if you sold, let's say, you know, back then Bally or Ferragamo were really strong bras. So they were quite expensive. So they would be able to order one by the company. But the guy had like such bad credit, when you would call the ballet or whatever company, they, you will say I'm calling from this store. And they're like, Oh, I'm sorry, you know, your credit line is filled. And then like, as I was a kid, I'm like, No, but it's like, this guy's going to a wedding. And I learned a little bit of salesmanship the hard way.

Samir Balwani 3:54

Because you're a salesman on both ends now at this point,

Wayne Kulkin 3:57

credit guide and be able to sell the person. Um, and that was probably one of the better experiences just because like you had to be so intrapreneurial you had to be so scrappy. Yeah. It was always unpredictable. So it was like kind of a little bit of an adrenaline rush. And then one of the vendors came by and said, man, there's this company that's opening down, you know, down the way called Nordstroms. And so I'm like, you know, so, and he's like, no, no, you should go there. So I didn't have a car and had one jacket, which was like this baby blue blazer. And I rode my skateboard. And I hid it in the bushes. So it's kind of a funny story that, you know, the people that were back there, remember? So I go in there and you know, I mean, it was like their first store and South Bay and there was so many people applying for the different jobs. You know, the stores are huge. So yeah, I go through the interview. I just saw, like, gosh, I'm hearing all these people talk about, like, oh, I worked in Italy. And it's like, Man, I'm like not. So I do get the job. And then I still think like, Okay, this isn't for me, you know, I really want to focus on basketball. But the thing opened up, and all I did was keep my head down and just keep helping people just bringing out tons of shoes. And, you know, it was like a 15 hour day. And then the next day you came to work, and they announced, like the top sellers. And I was like, when the top of the whole store which has, you know, 100 people or something tough seller, so then I get my first check, and you got commission. And so you know, your 18 year old kid, and you get a check, like, I think it was a couple of $1,000. So like today, it'd be like, like, 20k like, it's like more money than you could drink or spend or house. And so I did that for a few months. And then I got asked to be a manager. And so I was like, they have all these levels of manager. So I was like the, like the, you know, scrubbing the toilet manager. And did that for like a two weeks ago, something happened where they had a shake up, and everybody went and this really kind man was my mentor. So he made me like the number one manager. And that was great learning experience, because back then Nordstroms was very entrepreneurial. Really, each store was like its own business. And there were so many great leaders that are went on to be CEO, some of the biggest companies on Earth. So that was really awesome. And then I was able to go from manager to buyer, you know, again, really like by 19. So then yeah, then things started picking up and really liked it loved being a merchant move through the ranks, got the biggest buying job at a very, very young age. And then my mentor was on the other side and wholesale. And he decided to move to a different company. And he was working for Stuart Weitzman, and Stuart Weitzman is a very, very small company back then, like the making wedding shoes, maybe doing $5 million. So I just got married. I got the best job you could have as a merchant, but I'm just like, not so I'm very curious and very, like, interesting to try new things. So I just quit, which was like a really big deal. And they remember like, my boss, Stuart Weitzman got a call at that time by Mr. Nordstroms. Was Nordstrom saying like, no, if you ever want to sell shoes, you know, don't be taken our people. It was such a crazy move. And then I spent four years driving in a van all over the country with shoes in the back of the van, taking people out to like breakfast at Denny's. Amazing. And then the business started growing, you know, and then I made a little stock program. So people could get shoes immediately. Because back then at high price, no one did anything like that, then it got a bit bigger. And then I hired like an army of young women back then to just go and take the sizes because there's no there was nothing digital. So people were like, on a piece of paper, I say, Oh, you have 171809. And then after four years, we had a substantial business got bored. asked if I could move to New York. On my own dime with a young pregnant wife we moved to the most boring place Darien Connecticut, but house with a hole in the ceiling in the worst history and squirrels inside the house. So then we started like getting a bit more serious and expanding to department stores. Then the next step was International. Then the next step was you know, I retail junkie so like, you know, I put my life savings with door to open the first door on Madison Avenue. And so that's how the retail journey began. And so to fast forward the story, we had one store to store three stores, we had a lot of stores. And then again, you know, it was time to do the next idea which was you know, ecommerce, so we were really early with a couple of ideas, replenishment, Omni channel and EDI we were really I think, I can't say we're the first but I really think we pioneered that actually with Neiman Marcus setting up you know shoes to be filled in through EDI and so kind of always had that idea of what e commerce you know, it's which is really just when you have something someplace How do you get it to the most people and not expect those people just to go to the one place 100

Samir Balwani 9:56

I also think you know when I think you are downplaying the complexity that is the shoe business also, especially when it comes to EDI, because, you know, for a lot of brands, even if you're a fashion retailer, you've got small, medium, large, extra large, extra small, your shoe sizing is crazy, like it's nonstop. And it's different colors, different laces, different sizes, you know, all kinds of variations. And the more variations you have, the more inventory issues you have, the more information that needs to be passed back and forth. So really pioneering that EDI element is a huge boon and a leg up for a brand like that. Yeah, and

Wayne Kulkin 10:36

it's like the last part of just being curious and then seeing what works and what doesn't work. And what was so funny that I remember, ecommerce, you know, it was pretty easy to start, not easy to do a lot of revenue. But people knew that that was the future. But at the high end, everybody was so anti it. So the people now that are the best players, you know, the LVMH is in the clearance. They were so anti it, it was it was just almost like bizarre. It's like Don't, don't you see? I mean, it's like, you know, there's a new reality. And so there was a funny period where like, you know, there were people that were just, you know, naysayers, but it's like the same thing when anything's new, like electric cars, or crypto or, you know, it's like, okay, it's going to happen. And then we kind of really became international. So we have stores all over the world. So therefore, you had to have websites. But yeah, it web businesses with some of the best retailers like on Earth. So we were partners in Asia with Lane Crawford. Such a wonderful retailer, from Merchandising, to service to experiences. And in Asia, first, they really had trouble with E commerce. So it was a big, big battle, in regards to like when believing in it, and to having the consumer accept it. And now we're not talking, you know, that long ago, and it was really interesting to see how now that part of the world leads everything desert.

Samir Balwani 12:10

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, because I know, like, even when I was, you know, I was born here and grew up here. But whenever we go visit, back home in India, to my parents, and to my family there, the shopping experience in store is very, almost like sacred, right? Like it is a is a true experience. And I know that they struggled trying to bring that online too, because there were so many people that said, how can you have a high value experience when it's almost self service, right, and, you know, LVMH and kering went through these the same, like, it used to, I'm sure you remember the flash websites where you would have this like interstitial, because that's supposed to make you feel like you're entering into the store, which obviously was just really frustrating and annoying on your dial up. But, you know, it's funny to see how people have transitioned through and now recognize that customer experience and consumer behavior needs to lead versus, you know, what we think the brand needs to do. It's like, just solve the customer's problem, you know, sales a one on one, right? And so, I, you know, a, it's great to kind of see that start to transition now.

Wayne Kulkin 13:18

It's funny, like, I think that most advance, next country for digital is India, because, you know, it's so big, and there's not shopping available and, you know, 89% of the country. You know, as people have always said, like India will be the next China forever. But no, now, it's not the next China is the next you know, consumer giant, also content giant, right. So everything ties into content, what made China especially blow up and then Korea after China was content, right. So like in Korea, especially if it's like the Hollywood of Asia, or you know, and all the things from Kpop to the Netflix shows, they became really kind of the epicenter of fashion for that part of the world. And you know, same things happening in India with Bollywood. Yeah.

Samir Balwani 14:15

Awesome. And India has a leg up in that English is such a common language out there. So it translates really easily into other markets, which is very helpful. But yeah, I I, I love your background. So what brought you to found st trends, you would think that after entrepreneurism through other businesses, that would have been enough, but here we are, yeah,

Wayne Kulkin 14:39

that's why I say that, you know, definitely a good therapist, if you can recommend one. But I, you know, the strange thing is because I started at this so young, you know, I worked at one company for like, my adult life, like in my 20s and 30s and 40s. And, you know, in my 50s at Syracuse It's been so, you know, it was so unique to work with one person and to take something and learn everything from retail to digital to social. Then when we have the resources to be able to work with, let's say at the time like the supermodels, you know, we were pretty good about having a sixth sense of when to change. And, you know, one of the interesting things there was, you know, we were working with like, Giselle is like, the face of the brand. And then we just had this epiphany that, you know, social was going to be so important. Same thing, right? They're crazy. Giselle is Giselle is like, so we had all these resumes, and, you know, portfolios of all these different young women. And we ended up going with three, which was so fun. And so the, one of the highlights that kind of like, what more could you do as we switched in the first campaign had Gigi Hadid, Joanie and small Lily Aldridge. And so it was so interesting, because it translated into Europe and translated into China. So it for me, it was really interesting to see the way that the world was changing. At the same time, you know, the founder, was getting on in years, and we sold this company five times. So the last sell was to, at the time, it was just coach was their first acquisition, you know, now it's tapestry, and they have all these different things. And it was just kind of it was time to go because it became a corporate company. And, you know, it just, that's not my thing, you know, in regards to like, you know, being driven by quarter results, I mean, business is business. So they, but they were really, really nice in regards to the fact that I, you know, I gave them a pretty long notice time, and then they kept me on as like a consultant, but they let me start my own, like little sneaker company. Wish I had one extra year because I started in 2018. So 2017, I was like, um, but then yeah, so going from having lots of resources, and lots of wonderful assets, and all in all the toys to do the new things, you know, starting your own company with your own money in a pretty difficult space, you know, so you know, where sneakers, not so easy, right? I mean, you have everybody, your Nike and Adidas, you know, to your premium people, you know, Gucci, golden goose and everything in between. But it was like a holding House of Ideas. So it's really an incubation company. And so, like, so many little things that we do in it. So sustainability is something that I started so long ago, because I grew up on the ocean in Southern California, where I share with you the view outside the Grand Tetons. And so it was something before it was something and I was able to get a lot of trademarks, like we own project sustainability, trademark for the world. And so we incorporate that into P for for a real regenerative sustainability. And we really follow through and we try to find invasive species that are proven to be problematic by government and science. And then, you know, at the end, take the skins and use them and shoes. So we're not using somebody else more precious, be it if it's a material or a food source, like you know, a cow or a goat. Yeah,

Samir Balwani 18:25

that's really interesting. And I love that you kind of it overlaid your passion for that work into the kind of brands that you're creating. And so So tell us a little bit more about P448 and the vision for the brand.

Wayne Kulkin 18:41

Yeah, we try to do something different. And like everybody makes, mainly everybody makes the sneakers in Asia. So China, Vietnam, now Indonesia. So we wanted to try to give the best possible price value proposition. So you know, at a fair price, I mean, you know, it's not like 298, or $300 isn't expensive by any means for most people. But, you know, with the cost of sneakers, that was a focus, then how do we make them better. So it took us about four years, and we're really there to become completely vertical. So everything from the footbed, to the outsoles, to the shoelaces, we do the recruitment, we do it all ourselves. There's no middle people. We have a vertical team on the ground, we're on the ground. And so we do think we make our product much better than most, especially at our price point. So that that was part of it, the Italian craftsmanship. And the European craftsmanship is something that's precious, that's kind of going away. So that was also something that just was part of my life that you know, gosh, if we could keep that going. So that was another reason to kind of work there. And it's good and you can work with small quantities. So we were a small company. So, you know, big companies have minimum order MOQ. Okay, well, 1000 20,000 50,000 pair for one SKU in Italy, you know, you can go to these little artists and factories. And you know, if you already have the mold in the last, you know, they'll make nine pair, you know, so it was really deja vu to how Stewart began, you know, because the same way a customer would want to change a heel from blue to red. Okay, yeah. And it was. So that was kind of fun to have that kind of flexibility and let the customers kind of have a chance to play with materials. And then the next step was kind of same thing. Take advantage of technology. So you know, we would, these are the 30 skews, they're going to be open stock, putting them in a warehouse, everybody can, you know, do dropship. And that was helpful to get the product out there. So you know, that's something we repeated. And then we started doing it in Europe, believe it or not, it's still really, really rare. There's the dropship, and the EDI. All these little boutiques and such a big territory, really don't take advantage of that is very rare to have like pre cut inventory.

Samir Balwani 21:19

That's interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. The shopping experience in Europe is so different than anywhere else, and especially in the United States. And I can see, you know, boutiques still hold a pretty big chunk of power out there versus a kind of being consolidated here in the US. So it's interesting that they haven't made that leap yet. When, you know, as you look ahead for P443, as you look ahead to kind of the growth and where it's going next, what are the things that you see as challenges in the year ahead? You know, what are the things that you're trying to solve and overcome?

Wayne Kulkin 21:55

I think the biggest challenges is really, there's too many challenges. So you know, when, you know, just, you know, economies that are up and down. And just because financial markets seemed buying doesn't mean the average consumer is fine to use geopolitics that have a much greater impact than probably in modern consumer history, and conflicts, thrown global warming, whereas just like, you know, when it's supposed to be cold, it's warm, when it's supposed to be warm, it's cold. So the old paradigm of how you buy from a seasonal mouth, seasonality is obsolete. I mean, you know, if you just are going to bring in sweaters in July, and it's I'm gonna get cold to march, something doesn't match. And so this big reset going on right now. So also, the consumer is so important on the younger end, or the sentiment of the Gen Z. So their attention span is of an ant device bigger than iPhone. Everybody wants truncated content and information. And that's something that I think is still not solved. I think, theory you are, the harder it is to like, embrace it. It's a lot about the, you know, kind of like the Tick Tock phenomena of like, how do you say something in 20 seconds? And also, the old ways of, and through the industry? I don't need to say the names. It's obvious. I mean, look at how many bankruptcies in the digital world has happened in the last 12 months, players that three years ago, everybody was in awe. And you know, now not, and it's because too much product, it's just like with shopping malls 20 years ago, too much products, too much, you know, bad UX, too much stuff. Who goes past page one, but most people have page 500? You know, or if you add up all the categories, page 1000. And I think that's, that's the consumer change. That's like happening, but maybe people haven't quite accepted it yet. Yeah, it's

Samir Balwani 24:05

interesting on that element of it, because I feel like the pendulum on e-comm has kind of swung. And early on, you know, you and I were talking about this where the in store experience was consultative and it was like, you know, there wasn't a lot of stock because you just didn't have a store large enough for a lot of stock and, and even the North's terms in the Macy's of the world, they actually acted like little stores within the store, right? Like you didn't just have a giant warehouse and you walk through the warehouse, everything was curated. And so e-comm came along and people said, You know what, we're gonna throw everything out there. And now we've kind of shifted to this where there's just so much product, and what's the biggest thing missions that a lot of these brands are now having is how do we personalize the recommendations to you? We're just curate that experience. So that way you are seeing the products that matter to you and kind of almost a replicating that experience that you have in store. So I agree with you, I think there's so many brands that ended up doing so much product creation and creating so many products, and then holding inventory of all of that, which is a huge drain on cashflow. And you end up in this cycle where it's, I bought a lot of inventory, and my cash is tied up, I can't invest it in marketing to sell that product. And so we're going to slowly try and run out of money at some point. And unless we get a cash infusion, we're not coming out of this cycle. And that's what we're doing now.

Wayne Kulkin 25:31

But think about the other, like, big albatross for digital or ecommerce is the fact that everybody just had to do the free shipping, free returns. So, you know, that really probably was, at least in the last 18 months, you know, like kind of the final nail, you know, into having to change kind of models. Because, you know, you're left with nothing. I mean, you're carrying inventory, performance marketing, which, you know, it's it's really difficult and also sameness. So everybody buys the same stuff. So, again, you're an expert in this. I mean, so how can you drive people to a brand when there's 300 people carrying that same breath? Right. So you know, there, there's just too much saturation. And I think it's happening already, the premium luxury brands are really pulling back, even from the top digital players to just doing it themselves. Consumers are so focused on if it's my favorite brand, I'm gonna go to my favorite brands site first, and then you know, someplace else if there's a sale. So it's, it's interesting, because it's just a reset, but I think ecommerce will become massive again. And it's just like a new level, it's just gonna be different.

Samir Balwani 26:51

Yeah, and I think you're, you're, there's a few trends in that, that I think you're exactly right on. So when we talked about Gen Z a little bit, the they definitely do have short attention spans. They are inundated with ads and influencer content, and they're being sold to more than anybody else, right. And yet, they have the earliest propensity to create brand loyalty. So Gen Z, and Gen alpha are creating brand loyalty earlier on then, you know, Millennials and Boomers and etc, who were doing it later in life, because they actually experienced a lot of different brands. And now you're just kind of having to create a brand to fall in love with the brand that you want. Because it's almost like a filtering mechanism, or, well, I really like the sneaker brand. Great. I don't have to worry about any other sneaker brand ads, whatever, we're good, this is my brand, I'm gonna carry its flag, right, it's like that. So that's definitely an element of it. And then on the e-comm side, especially when direct to consumer brands have their website, and then are also a wholesale. I think one of the biggest gaps that people forget, and we talked about performance marketing, and it is becoming harder, and there's a lot in there. If your customer experience doesn't match your wholesalers, you aren't doing the same thing. They're doing loyalty programs, you know, free shipping or shipping at a certain a Ovie. Consumers going to ask why should I purchase from you and not buy from retail, right, and that hurts your margin in the long run, like your DTC margin is going to be higher than your wholesale margin. And it also just opens you up to a customer, a potential customer going to a competitor, because now you're back into the competition, right? And so I always challenge our our brands to say, hey, like, here that you want your DTC site to do really well. But are you actually offering the same thing that your wholesalers are offering? Where when price isn't a difference?

Wayne Kulkin 28:45

Yeah, that's like the dilemma. And I think that's why I think there will be this next. What's the right word, then the next reiteration of the importance of E commerce because once people realize curation counts, content counts, live streaming counts, so you got to have a mix, commerce with great UX, but you also got to be entertainment. So in the old days, as you said, like, you go into a store, and there was an amazing salesperson that just knew you know, what you loved? Right? That was part of it. Now, you know, you could say, Can AI help with that? Maybe, but at the end of the day, you still just have to be very, very clever in how you serve that up, you know, because I don't think if you have a change of mind for one day, and you want to look different or midlife crisis, you know, that's where AI won't figure that out. Right. So it's beneficial to some extent in regards to predicting maybe inventory levels, behaviors, times when a consumer buys times when they don't buy, but at the end is a lack of merchants across the world is really a problem.

Samir Balwani 29:57

And it's interesting because we're talking a lot about our formance marketing and you've come from store and so you understand the value of brand marketing to, and I think a lot of brands, but even the ones that, you know are struggling this year really leaned in on performance and when that kind of went away, and you know, when you and I were talking about consumer behavior is changing, there's more more options than ever before, will the brand that I most do close to is the one that I'm going to purchase from all else, kind of even. And so, you know, brands like don't invest in brand building and having a brand point of view. And a vision in which you so eloquently explained was before great vision is sustainability and being able to do things in an interesting way. And having Italian craftsmanship, those are all proof points to kind of prove out the value of that brand. brands that don't answer those questions and then effectively communicate them are just never going to win.

Wayne Kulkin 30:50

And there's one other part that even if you're doing a lot of that well, actually, particularly online is really difficult. So like as a small company like us, but we're really proud of our sustainability, we have packaging that saves two pounds of trash. There's no boxes, you have a bag that you can use for the gym or for the market. But we just don't have the ability to tell the story, as well as we're doing it. And I think lots of brands have that same whatever it might be a performance brand, it could be a beauty brand. And it is really hard to do that. And that's needed. And that's why I do like, you know, UGC, I do like, you know, getting that that's what the consumer likes if they can really be part of it, but not in a in a calculated way. So there's much more room to say what you want, do what you want. You can't make everybody happy. So if 20% that people get pissed off at you for whatever you're saying is a

Samir Balwani 31:49

breath is Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's the point, right? Like, you have to know who you don't stand for, to know who you stand for. And so I think that that's, that's great. So So in my last question for you. We asked about challenges, what are you most excited about? For 2020?

Wayne Kulkin 32:08

I think there is an openness for people to communicate both consumer and companies in a way that didn't exist, people used to hold their information very close to their vest. And you know, what I'm seeing, as you know, every day, I sometimes just spend some time mentoring somebody. Other times, I'm being mentored. And some of the largest technology companies or the largest suppliers are really open to ideas where in the past, they would just, it was what it was. So I think this like, a little bit more trust or a little bit like unsustainable things, if if somebody figures out something, it's not something to be hoarded, it's something to be shared, people will figure it out anyway. So I think there's this new openness to just communicate, to try to help each other. And like, what you do, you know, you're critical for our brand to succeed. And, you know, if the brand tried it without you, they're gonna fail. So I feel there's a certain level of openness that you need to share with the brand the brand needs to share with you. And that builds a better mousetrap. And, you know, in all areas.

Samir Balwani 33:31

Yeah, it's really interesting. You say that, because I feel like you know, my family or business owner, so I've grown, I'd much like my dad and watch the transition that he's gone through. And, you know, I still remember early on there is this almost distrust of anybody out there, and you have this sense of, oh, man, I can't share anything, because they're just gonna go and do it. And I think the internet and culture as a whole has kind of shifted that mentality in that information is everywhere now, like you can, if you do want to take the time, you could probably figure it out. It's really more around the actioning and experiences and this openness to share and recognizing, I may know this year, I don't know this here. If I shared this, you might share that. And now we're both better because of it. And I do. I love that you brought that up, because that is a truly exciting piece of what is changing in the business and the industry as a whole. And it's not just your unique consumer good. I think it is business as a whole. We're seeing it more consistently everywhere.

Wayne Kulkin 34:35

And I think there's also a change of wanting to have so much stuff, which is also interesting, like, everybody's pretty satisfied, no matter what your, you know, wealth level is. The days are just like, you know, maybe somebody that had unlimited wealth and going in and buying 10 Rolexes or woman buying, you know, six Birkins if she could get it I think there's a little bit wore have a, you know, high low and you know, I want one thing that's really special to me. But the rest I'm really happy with just something that's, you know, well priced. So I think there's democracy to fashion that, you know, is pretty new. I mean, there was always the high low thing you know, but now it's you know, I just think it's, I see it in the major cities around the world, it's very different.

Samir Balwani 35:26

Yeah, I think that that there's definitely a shifting trend in fashion and consumerism as a whole. And I think you're exactly right. I think people are starting to appreciate the things that that you want the one thing that you really appreciate, and you're going to, you're going to spend your money on that and find value in it. And the things that you don't need to you don't you know, you're not spending on it. So when thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. I'm going to point people to people who write please check it out. Buy some some sneakers, they've got really cool stuff. If someone wants to learn more about you and where can they go? Where can they kind of check you out?

Wayne Kulkin 36:07

Ah, good question. I'm not very social, you know, LinkedIn or, or, you know, email me up people for a way that people free.com

Samir Balwani 36:17

Oh my god, I love it. Thank you. Thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

Wayne Kulkin 36:22

No, thank you for your time it was super enjoyable.

Outro 36:30

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