Samir Balwani: 00:03

Hi, I'm Samir Balwani, host of Chief Advertiser. And founder of QRY. Join me as I talk to industry leaders about their strategies, challenges, and successes in managing their advertising and marketing. This episode is brought to you by QRY. QRY is a full funnel media agency powered by data and creativity to connect brands with customers who will love their products. To learn more about how we can help you improve your brand awareness and performance marketing, visit. We are on our episode today I have Peter Klein. He's the VP of Customer Growth and Retention at Ideal Living. We've had a really fun conversation already. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for joining us.

Peter Klein: 00:46

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this.

Samir Balwani: 00:49

Yeah, it's going to be a lot of fun. So let's actually start at the beginning. So tell me a bit about how you got started, what you do now. Kind of give us the path.

Peter Klein: 00:58

All right. So I had a first career actually in academic advising and student affairs back at UC Santa Barbara. Go, Gauchos. And it's funny because with the power of hindsight, I actually see how much marketing was a part of that, where it was all about understanding who the customer was, what their problems were, and how I could tailor my message to provide the right solution. All things that are very key to marketing that I didn't realize I was doing then. But for the past 20 years or so, I've been almost exclusively doing direct response marketing for health and wellness and home environment products, working with companies that have multiple brands and working across all of them. So I was at Guthy-renker big infomercial giant for a few years. So proactive, meaningful beauty brands like that. I was on the current member marketing team and really focused on how do we extend the customer lifetime value. A lot of cancel save strategies because there are a ton of subscriptions there. and went from there to Golden Hippo, which is one of the biggest companies people may not have heard of. It is a huge direct response company with 15 to 20 brands. Gundry, MD, is the largest one, but they also have activated you, Beverly Hills, MD and a bunch of pet products. I was the chief customer officer there, overseeing a lot of the same things with how we how we increase the customer lifetime value and experience at every touchpoint. And I was also the CEO of their contact center business and the fulfillment business for a while too. So it was big picture how we interact with our customers. And for the last three plus years I've been with Ideo living, another direct response company with a bunch of brands and been around for a couple decades. It's a great company. They they have some supplements in older school, infomercial products like Roto Razor and Miracle Blade. but the main business for the last few years has been these home environment brands. Air doctor for professional grade air purifiers and Aqua Tru, which is countertop and under the sink, reverse osmosis water purifiers. And that has been the the main focus for the company for the last couple of years. And I oversee a lot of the customer communication and marketing. So the the email channel and I was heavily involved with all the copywriting side of it, too. I worked closely with customer service, but for the last year I've also been overseeing the Air Doctor brand team, which is the largest brand at the company. So I have my foot in the or my feet in a couple of different places.

Samir Balwani: 03:39

Yeah, I mean, I love it. I love talking to people like you because you are, you know, on the acquisition side, on the, you know, advertising side, we always say, oh, we gotta understand the customer, we gotta understand the customer. But you actually know the customer like you, You have them inside and out and you really understand that. I think that that's such a cool opportunity and such a great place to be. Thanks.

Peter Klein: 04:00

Yeah. Customers are great and we're customers. And so when it's time to put my customer hat on, it's very easy because I, I am one. And when I was at Golden Hippo, I asked one of the artists to write Customer Land in big bubble letters that looked like Candy land on the whiteboard where our department was just so everyone knew. This is the place where people are focused on the customer, not the day one sale, everything that happens after and how to keep them around, buying more, referring us to other people. And yeah, that's where I've really focused a lot for the last many years.

Samir Balwani: 04:33

Yeah, they're referring to other people is such a piece that I think gets lost in the shuffle. You know, people are always like, I want retention, I want retention, and and that's great. Like, you can keep a silent customer forever, but that's not what's going to actually grow the business. So I love that, you know, when you and I had talked before, we talked a little a little bit about the advertising piece of this. And, and I'm so I would love for you to kind of chat about how you guys look at advertising and its role in customer retention. Sure. Where does it matter? Is that even like a consideration? Like, how do you think about that?

Peter Klein: 05:10

Absolutely. It it's a big part of everything we do because the products need to work and they need to solve whatever problem people are having. And if it if it's a one time purchase and they buy something once and that's it, that's that's not really a brand. That's not it's, it's it's not something that is sustainable in the same way as when you keep communicating with them. And so the way that I look at marketing on the retention side is we already know a lot about the customer. The big marketing principle that I always think about is how do you enter the conversation already happening in the customer's mind? And so when we're talking about existing customers. We know a lot about them. We know that whatever the problem solution relationship is that we were putting out there, it resonated with them enough for them to spend their hard earned money on our product. And so that that's a big thing. So we don't need to sell that same thing again when we're talking to them. What we should be doing is reminding them why it was a good purchase and a smart decision. Give them the tips and tricks to make the most out of the product and pre-answer any questions that we think they're going to have. And that's been something that has been some of the most fun I've had in my career, is that kind of thing. So if I can give an example from the Guthy-renker days, Proactiv, which had, you know, millions of customers, huge brand, the billing process was very confusing. And we knew that customers would see a charge and not really understand because it was advertised as 1999 a 99 a month, but it was a three month supply, so you'd be billed in three installments. But the bottles were kind of small, so they might think that was just one month. So we had a literally millions of calls with questions about the billing and why am I being charged. So we put our heads together and said, all right, where what is the mindset of someone right before they call to ask about our billing process and realize that most often they're looking at a credit card statement that is signaling that there was a charge. So we put a unique toll free number on the credit card statement. And when someone called that number before it got to the the IVR, the phone tree, there was a pre-recorded message that said, yeah, thank you for being a part of the Proactiv family. If you have a question about our billing process, let me explain. It's billed in three installments and it laid it out and said the first one is going to be slightly more, because that's where the tax and shipping and handling is. If this answers your question, you can hang up now. And We would get about 15,000 calls a week to that unique toll free number and have, depending on the week, 8 to 10% of people hang up there before getting to. And it was it was amazing because we answered their question. It was better for the customer because it was faster. It was better for us because it was $0.10 a minute in the IVR versus 60 something cents a minute for a longer phone call. And agents didn't always read it with the same enthusiasm and compliance. And so and the agents were happy to not have to say that as many times. So it was one of those rare win win wins where we we just answered the question before they asked it. And and then they were on their way. And so that is that's where I think of the, the marketing aspect of retention is what are their pain points and how can you proactively pun somewhat intended there, get in front of it and answer those questions and that that stuff is fun. If you if you have the have the data and you can learn about your customers and and see what they're reaching out for and when, then you can devise all the marketing strategies around it to keep them on the path you want them to be on.

Samir Balwani: 08:58

It's so interesting too, though, because I think about that story. And one of the things that's kind of unsaid in there is that proactive have built enough brand trust that somebody would listen to that and be like, okay, yeah, I get that. Like, you're not pulling the wool over my eyes, right? Like so there is a, there is this like element of all of this pre marketing that needs to be done. And this like brand connection that needs to be created before you can kind of do that kind of stuff.

Peter Klein: 09:27

Right. And that goes back to what I was saying before is we don't need in that moment to say, you know, doctors Rodan and Fields did specifically designed this to be because they had already purchased whatever the message was before it pushed the right buttons and they were in. Now they had a different question. We don't need to go back and tell them things that are not relevant. They have one specific question, and we can answer that quickly and accurately and then get them on their way. That's that's going to be the best way to do it.

Samir Balwani: 09:55

Yeah. No that's awesome. And I mean, that's like a perfect example of you guys having this like perspective of what the customer's needs and questions are going to be. And then, you know, being able to actually, you know, improve those. So you know, speaking of this like kind of this cycle of things. Right. Does that information go to your acquisition partners and does that then get put onto like do you try to preemptively even answer that question so it doesn't even become a question?

Peter Klein: 10:24

Yeah. So for for that one not not too much, but I have I have other great examples of that, that exact thing happening where. So I when I was overseeing contact centers, I loved sitting with the agents and just saying, yeah, I would have, you know, eight focus groups a day back to back and just say, all right, what do customers like and what don't they like? I usually have to try to steer them back to the like they would. They would jump on all the problems and and I'd say to them, look, that's the nature of customer service. People don't pick up the phone and say, just want to let you know you're doing a great job.

Samir Balwani: 10:56

That's that's very rare. Yeah.

Peter Klein: 10:59

So but what what was great about it is I would hear from the front line from people who are taking thousands of calls. What what was reaching a critical mass and one really cool example. So at Golden Hippo there was a new pet product and it was a, a powder, a supplement that you put on top of kibble to add the nutrients that usually are not in traditional kibble. And the return rate was higher than other products on it. And so I was having these focus groups and I asked them, you know, what do customers like? What don't they like? And one agent in a kind of off handed way, say, said something like, Dan, they don't know how to use the water. And I said, can you tell me more about that? And said, well, so when someone just pours water on it. It doesn't dissolve all the way. And so their dogs might inhale a little of the powder and sneeze, and they might think their dog is allergic or something. And I said, okay, has anyone else had calls like that? And everyone started nodding and I said, okay, what do you tell them? What's the best way to handle this? And they said, if you sprinkle water or a spray bottle is best, that helps it dissolve evenly. And then they won't have that happen. And I said, alright. And I ran back. Flew back the next day. And I met with the acquisition team and we need to get in front of this. So we put it everywhere we could. It was in the FAQs and it was in the how to use directions, the quickstart guide in the box, we put a sticker on the lid like the quickstart. This is how to do it wherever we thought their eyeballs would be, because if we knew this was a pain point, let's let's pre-answer it. Let's have our with information have it all out there before they get to that point. And it had an immediate impact on the return rate. And it went down. And it was directly from asking the people who were talking to the customers and saying, what are you hearing? And that's how. And that cycle is, is so important to any product. You got to hear what people are saying. And then and then yeah, the the billing one is a little different because they didn't want to be too upfront with how many. Oh I know you.

Samir Balwani: 13:04

Gotta you gotta manage the conversion rate on the acquisition side. And so doing the math you're like, all right people are buying this. Great. All right. We'll continue on. And it's yeah, it is really interesting. And for people listening, if you don't have a call center or you're not large enough like Amazon reviews, Google.

Peter Klein: 13:23

Reviews, absolutely.

Samir Balwani: 13:24

Great place to start, right?

Peter Klein: 13:25

So yeah, Amazon reviews are great. I look at Amazon reviews for all of our products often. I just I want to know, you know, sometimes it hurts to read the the rare low star ones. But I want to know what people are saying and and if there's inaccurate information, which sometimes there is, someone will say it doesn't do this. And that's where we want to know what what what's out there and how is someone getting that information. And recently we've had people looking at Reddit threads and we're just where are the customers? What are they saying and how can we how can we use that? And and do they have product ideas for line extensions like, oh, I like this brand, but I didn't buy it because they don't have blank. That's how we we start exploring new ideas.

Samir Balwani: 14:10

I wish it did like that. That's like if you hear that, you know you're you're going down. Right. So yeah, it's really interesting. I also think like these reviews and the call center is also feedback for the team because I'm sure this is something that you deal with is like if you're advertising, if you're external advertising and marketing sets an expectation that can't be delivered on, then that creates, you know, this, this issue where like, you can have the perfect customer retention, set up, the perfect call centers, the perfect everything. But it isn't what the customer expected, then that it doesn't matter. So how do you give that feedback? Like what is that feedback loop? How do you make sure that that is continually like.

Peter Klein: 14:48

Yeah, that's a there was there's one example a long time ago where someone tested just wanted to see if it would affect conversion rate on a brand new product if they tested double your money back guarantee.

Samir Balwani: 15:02

Okay.

Peter Klein: 15:04

Well, that's without really telling. The the customer service team about this. And so as soon as they started getting calls saying, so I want my money back and I want you to pay me. And we didn't have any mechanism to cut a check to customers, and so had to immediately go back and say the communication needs to be a little better whenever you're trying something new so that the agents are prepared. And we actually ended up creating an intranet just for the customer service agents, where we could put all things that were being tested, new language, new approved claims and everything, so that there was one place where they would know everything that was running. Because with all the different channels, sometimes, especially right now at Ideal Living, we might have our influencers, which is an amazing acquisition channel for us. They might have a different deal than what is through email or what someone sees on search. Customer service team needs to know everything that's going on and what the different prices are. If someone says, I saw 50% off coupon somewhere and they they'll be able to know, actually, we don't have that anywhere, or they'll say, oh yeah, you saw this promo and be able to give them the the discount that they saw. But yeah, that the communication has to be great for what's being tested and and what and more importantly or equally importantly, whenever we're testing something, I want to know what are we trying to get out of it? What is the main learning? And sometimes, depending on the test, a flat result is a win. So, for example, if we're changing a layout to be more updated and if conversion is the same. Great. That's a that's a win. It didn't hurt us to look more modern. Or if we're changing, we add a disclaimer for something. And if conversion doesn't change, great. Or we added a continuity to to something that we might expect the average order value to go down a little because there's a discount for signing up for the subscription. That's actually good. So there.

Samir Balwani: 17:05

Yeah. Yeah. That's actually a really good point, because I think a lot of people don't take the intangibles into account when you're looking at the outcome of a test. Yeah.

Peter Klein: 17:16

So there was one thing that that was really mind blowing to me was at Guthy-renker, we were putting all these things in place to pre save people who wanted to cancel. So we'd have information ahead of time, like adding something to the, the IVR that said to customize a number of products in your next shipment, press three. Right? Didn't didn't used to have that and it would be canceled was the one there instead. And so when we put that, we saw it pull directly from the number who had been pushing cancel before. But what that did was it made our save rate go down because we were pre saving the easy saves and only getting the harder ones, which was a good thing that the save rate went down and we had to really say, okay, so what should we maybe we need to look at the gross number of cancels like that, the count there instead of the rate. Because all of this goes into how many people cancel. It's not just those who say they want to cancel because we're we're pre saving them. So yeah it's interesting.

Samir Balwani: 18:19

Because then you're like who called to who canceled versus who got to the cancel tree and canceled right. Yeah. Yeah. It's just even that, that is, that is really interesting. And The other thing too, that I am curious about, like acquisitions, probably running all of these tests, a landing page example or pricing example. How does customer lifetime value then get kind of ported back into that? Is that even something that you guys are considering? Because I have to imagine, like if I had a flat outcome, but the lifetime value of one is a lot longer than the lifetime value of another. That's actually a huge win, all said and done.

Peter Klein: 18:53

It is. And and something that I've been yeah, people have heard me say a lot over the years is that I, I never want us to be blinded by the day one results. So if we have a split test and one has, you know, let's say an ROI of, you know, 200% or 2 to 1 and the other is 2.3 to 1, we should not automatically funnel all of our testing dollars. Say, all right, that's the new champion. Let's go. Because what if more of the, you know, the A in the A, B split, more of them are signing up for continuity and have a higher lifetime value than the other. What if the return rate on the the the B side is higher? So it's we definitely need to follow it all the way through see what the journey is. And that's one thing that guthy-renker being as big as they were. They knew what to expect from every acquisition, from every new customer because they they had that down. They had so many customers that they knew, it's okay if we lose X number of dollars on day one because we're going to get X times whatever on average for the lifetime. So yeah, you got you got to look at the whole thing. And the thankfully.

Samir Balwani: 20:02

The so the beauty of it and sorry to cut you off is that you have been sitting in a, in a leadership role. So you also then get to look at the cash flow of that. Right. Because like you need to be able to actually like lifetime value is great, but it can also be a trap. Right? Because if you acquire too many people where you're losing money in the first few days, you aren't gaining until after you can be in this cash flow dip that you can't keep track of, right? How do you manage against that then?

Peter Klein: 20:28

Well testing and then having holdout groups and not not rolling something out until we know. And so the the co-CEOs and founders of Ideal Living, Peter Spiegel and Katie Williams, are all about testing. They come from direct response television times where it would be you would run different offers, and then you would see and you'd watch it all the way through. And so, for example, we're doing a test right now for filter subscriptions for Air Doctor, and we're going to wait and it's going to take 7 to 13 months to get a really good read on. Did they end up spending more than people who are buying filters through email? And what's the profit of the sales? Because the email sales are very profitable without any additional acquisition cost. But the continuity orders are even more profitable because we're not there's no that's pretty hands off. They're just in there. So we have to look at it though because and this is another one that normally continuity is a no no brainer. You want as many people in a subscription as possible, but our customers are so interactive with their doctors and love them. They stock up and buy filters for the next year or two so that they have them on hand. And so the question that we have now is if a subscription is only giving them what they need, is that going to end up being a lower lifetime value or change the cash flow versus people buying more than they need through email? Is it actually hurting lifetime value to have subscriptions? I don't think that's going to be the case, but we have to really be. 

Samir Balwani: 22:05

Yeah, we have to Think about the customer usage like I if I need. I mean, it's so funny. My house air conditioning filter just gave me the notice that I need to like replace it, right. For the for the winter. I'm thankful that I have one on hand, but if I was on subscription and it's not coming till, you know, next week, right? I'd be really frustrated. And it's it's not a great customer experience then. Right. So like right you stock up on your filters and then you kind of go from there.

Peter Klein: 22:31

So so we'll be reading it. We'll be looking at all of it and and and see and but to your original question and monitoring cash flow and everything, we're not just rolling this out for 100% of our funnels, because if it turns out that it's not making as much money, then that was then. Yeah. Shouldn't have done that.

Samir Balwani: 22:51

Yeah, yeah. That's. So you said something really interesting in there, Peter, that you said it's going to take you 7 to 13 months to see the outcomes of this, right? You know, being in a mostly digital advertising guy, luckily, and out of home too. So those are long, long cycles. Yeah. But that I cannot there are very few leaders that would be on board with a test that goes that long. How do you kind of communicate that with your leadership? How do you have those conversations? And how do you kind of rein them in when they're ready to make some make some changes.

Peter Klein: 23:24

Well, fortunately, they are real pros. And they know this inside and out and know. Okay, well, that test will take a while. I, I didn't have to educate them at all on this. They've they've been doing it for longer than I have. And so and with some of the original products there are a lot of supplements and that have subscriptions. They they know what what the life cycle is with all of that and how long it takes to read. So I can imagine that would be tough to. What you need then is what are the leading indicators? What are the the breadcrumbs? Along the way you can look at how many people are canceling between shipment one and two and and start monitoring different things that will tell you how it's going as you're amassing all the data for lifetime value. And then it's we see these people are, you know, if people are on average dropping off, let's say day 75 between shipment two and three, Then you do a test to say in shipment two, we're going to put a note of a piece of paper, a physical piece of paper saying there's going to be a free gift in your next shipment. Thanks for being a valued customer. And then you see, does that cohort have a better stick rate versus the churn rate on the other? And so as you're still gathering all of the long term data, you can do these things to help try to increase it along the way and get some learnings as you're doing it. That's that's how to make the most of such a long lead time.

Samir Balwani: 24:53

It's the thing that I find most interesting about this conversation is so much of it is operational, driven, right, like the understanding of every test that's in market, the breakouts of all these audiences. Because otherwise you're going to muddy all your tests, right? Like that, that test that's in the 7 to 13 month. You can't test other things in it too, because then you won't know what was the actual impact of it. Right? It is really interesting to hear how organized you must be.

Peter Klein: 25:19

It comes and goes, but. Yes. And well, the other thing is, and this is a lesson that I learned from Mark Clemens, who's the CEO of Golden Hippo. My my first week there, it was the Friday of my first week, and I told him a story about how at Guthy-renker, Jae-sung was the CMO there, and he had this really brilliant idea about how do we communicate value without hitting people over the head with it. And he said, what if we accidentally left price tags on the bottles that come in the kit that have the MSRP on the on the bottles, so they know that they spent 1999 on this kit, but they will see each one has $20 or $25 on there. That's just a subtle way to reinforce it. Oh wait, you got a I got a good deal. So that test not to disparage the way that Guthy-renker worked, but it was much more bureaucratic. And it took basically a year and the test got warped to. It ended up being like a big starburst on a box saying save $60. And they decided, yeah, we're not going to really be able to read if this is working. And they scrapped it. So I told Mark, Mark this on the end of my first week there, he called a graphic designer over and we went through the story and said, well, we don't have price tags, but maybe on the UPC. She marked something up, came back with a box design for this was for Beverly Hills, MD, the dark spot corrector, and the retail price for that was $129. Most people got it through a special 59 or so, but she put a little 129 on the box design under the UPC code, and she said something like that, and he said, yeah, just put that in the next run of boxes. He knew that it wasn't worth said. It was certainly not going to do any harm. All it could do was add value. So instead of spending all the time to say, well, how do we have a hold out group and how do we then track these people? And even if lifetime value is higher, can we attribute any of that to that to this one thing that they might not have even seen. It was a yeah, it makes sense. It can't hurt anything. Let's just do it. And that was a really good lesson for me to learn there.

Samir Balwani: 27:28

Yeah. It's like when your confidence level is so high that you know that there's no point, right? Like, you already know that work or.

Peter Klein: 27:34

That would be really impossible to to pinpoint the impact that that one change had. So yeah, I want single variable tests as much as possible and not to interfere with a cohort that's in the middle of another test. But if there are no brainers that you can add along the way, it'll just I'm fine with rolling those into. Yeah.

Samir Balwani: 27:53

For sure. Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah, it is interesting because like, I love that you kind of brought one idea from one place to another. So, you know, one of the things that us in our job, we have to constantly be doing is really this concept of innovation. And like, what's the new next thing that we're going to do? And we talked a lot about testing. So it's like, what's the next thing that we're going to test. How do you stay ahead? How do you come up with these ideas. How do you look at new at new technology, like how are you kind of organizing all of that?

Peter Klein: 28:19

So first, great team at Ideal Living and every department we have a lot of just bright, hardworking people. And one thing that I've learned along the way also, and is one of the core values at Golden Hippo that I really took to heart, is that the best idea wins, and it's not the best idea from someone on a particular team, or best idea from an executive. Best idea, period. And really trying to foster that environment so people know if they saw something, a product that seemed cool, or they say, hey, I, I subscribe to this and I like the way that they did this. We just share those things. And so it's that's been a really good way to hear what others are doing, what what competitors or people in just completely different fields are doing so that we can decide, do we want to adopt some of this at the same time? I go to a few conferences a year. I just went to the customer contact week in Phoenix, and I was at the E-tail show in San Diego a little bit ago. And, and I just like hearing, you know, what are other people doing? And, and I talked to a lot of vendors and I say, well, what are you doing for clients like us? Give me some some use cases. And the owners have a very healthy testing appetite and say if if it works, great. And if not, you know, we test and you know, there's a common theme of testing. And that's because that's that's how how you grow and how you get better. So it's a few different ways to keep on top of what we're doing or what's out there. And, and then it's prioritizing and picking and choosing. We can't do all there's so many things I want to do, but we have to it has to be in the right time and and right season and everything.

Samir Balwani: 30:06

Can't burn yourself out in the process of just, like, trying new things. Yeah, yeah. Peter, final question for you. Sure. What's a key lesson you've learned from your experience? You've done a lot of really cool things. What's your takeaway?

Peter Klein: 30:21

Well, the risk of being repetitive, I the testing is the lifeblood of any direct response marketer. And if you are not constantly testing, even if it's subject lines in emails or the way is when you have one, three and six bottles of something, are you, you know, change the order. Amazon is testing a million things on their homepage every day and getting significant data and rolling it out. Just you have to be testing these things. And, and a big part of that is no one knows anything. Tests that you think are going to win might lose horribly. I, I worked somewhere and I, I their main way of acquiring customers was through this listicle, this landing page. And it was poorly written and cluttered. I made a succinct, you know, bolding the action words thing and and it lost by a lot to the worse version. It it wasn't. And that's, that's the beauty of direct response also is if it works and customers are responding to it, that's your brand. That's your you know, the brand is really what the customer tells you. It is in a lot of ways. So listening, not not thinking you know more than you do let let them tell you with their with their wallets what they want.

Samir Balwani: 31:42

I mean, I love so so there's two things you said in that, that I think are key. One is testing is super great, but I think it's all about testing culture. And you had this like open perspective around the test comes from anywhere. It can be a product test. It can be a messaging test, it can be a pricing test, like all of these things. And I think that that is amazing. But the other thing that you said that I think is actually really profound is your brand is what other people think. And like that, I that, I think, is the piece that a lot of people forget. They always say like, oh, our brand is for this, and we show up like that. And I'm like, no, but like, your brand is really what your customers want to say about you. And if they think you're cheap, then guess what? You're you're a cheap brand. If they think you're luxury, then you're a luxury brand, right? So like I think that that is one of the most important, I hope, is a really key takeaway that a lot of people take. And, you know, I really love chatting with you. Thank you so much for joining us today. If someone wants to find you online, where can people learn more about you?

Peter Klein: 32:43

I'm on LinkedIn. I don't do much there. There are a bunch of people with the same first and last name as me. But if if you find the one who works at Ideal Living, or if there's a link to my my particular LinkedIn bio in the show notes, and that's how you can find me and and to anyone listening, please do, I. I could chat about this stuff all day, and I love when people who I've never met will sometimes say, hey, thinking of testing this? Have you ever done anything like that? Or can you take a look at this line of copy? Do you like it or not? I obviously at some point I have to say give me some time, but I love that stuff. So please reach out and say hi and I'd love to hear what you thought about this.

Samir Balwani: 33:26

Yeah, we'll definitely include your info in the show notes so that people can find you because I on Peter. Super smart, very thoughtful, very passionate. I absolutely take him up on that. Thank you so much for joining us.

Peter Klein: 33:38

Thank you. This was this was a lot of fun.

Outro: 33:44

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Chief Advertiser. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe at Chief Advertiser and share the episode with others who might find it valuable and consider leaving us a review. Your support helps us bring more insights with each episode. See you next time!

‍