Samir Balwani 0:00

Hi, I'm Samir Balwani, host of Chief Advertiser and founder of QRY. Join me as I talk to industry leaders about their strategies, challenges, and successes in managing their advertising and marketing. On our episode today, I have Lewis Goldman, a partner in the revenue growth practice at TechCXO. He does great work supporting small to mid sized businesses with their marketing and CRO and I'm really excited. I've been working with Lewis for a while, and it's it's amazing to be able to chat with you. Thanks so much. Same here. I'm excited to be here. Yeah. So let's actually get started with kind of background so people can understand kind of how you got to where you are today and like so tell us more about what led you to be a fractional CMO,

Lewis Goldman 0:31

well, I'll give you kind of my personal journey. So I was a psychology major in college, too long ago for me to disclose. And one of the things I loved about psychology was it's really about kind of understanding people, and so I sort of stumbled after college into advertising. I worked for foot con and building, which is actually still around as an agency, hasn't gotten absorbed and merged and renamed 10 different times. But what I loved about advertising was it really played into this idea of really understanding what makes people tick and specifically what makes people buy things. Ultimately, I moved over to the client side and worked in package goods and in media, and was fortunate enough to kind of discover the internet early on, and I saw that as a I didn't invent the internet. I'm not Al Gore, just to be clear, but I discovered the internet as a as a marketing channel and as a distribution channel in the mid 90s, which, which was, was early on, and realized that it was something that I wanted to spend kind of the rest of my life involved with, and I pretty much have, which is, which has been a great opportunity for me. What's so terrific about the internet and e-commerce is it's this ability to both message and connect directly with customers and take them all the way through to a transaction. And that was the opportunity that really wasn't afforded before, other than, you know, sort of classic retail you know, it was the virtual equivalent of going into the store, knowing the shop owner, the shop owner, knowing what you prefer and and bringing it over to you, or showing you, you know kind of where you could pick it up. And so that was one of the things that I really loved about e-commerce. So worked in a variety of Chief Marketing Officer roles at different types of companies and financial services insurance and in at one 800 flowers in e-commerce ultimately decided that while I really enjoyed doing marketing and working with various types of companies, I didn't love working for a company full time, mostly because of The politics, and ultimately decided that it would be better to do this as a consultant. So at various points my career, I've been a single channel consultant, and then I joined TechCXO about five years ago, and it's been a great opportunity for me to work as a CMO in a company, but on a part time basis, and to be able to help a lot of different companies at once.

Samir Balwani 3:01

Yeah, yeah, that's really interesting. I think one of the coolest parts about your role, from my perspective, is just you're able to see so many different things and different challenges and learn from one another, and kind of help develop this. So it's similar to, like, our agency, like, right? Like, the beauty of an agency is, I laugh about this because I'm like, there's brand people and there's agency people, and it's like, do you like working with a singular product and a singular brand all the time? Or do you want to work with a lot of different things? And it's how deep or how shallow you want to go across the board. So I love that you've been able to find that in your consulting as well. Yeah,

Lewis Goldman 3:39

no, that's, that's that's one of the things that I really enjoy. I'm, I'm a lifelong learner, so one of the things I really enjoy is, frankly, the pressure of learning about a new business in a very short period of time and having to make an impact in that business quickly. And that's, that's something that is difficult to replicate, other than in kind of the work that I do, or the work that you and agencies do, yeah, I

Samir Balwani 4:04

think that's really cool also. I think it's important for you to also give context around all of the different kinds of businesses that you work on, because I think that that is also such a cool perspective everything from consumer goods to all around the different kinds of things, because you learn so much from one type of business to apply to another type of business that you wouldn't even I always laugh because my we do, you know, query does all consumer goods. And every once in a while, I'll tell my team, maybe we should throw a B2B business in here and let it be the Chaos Monkey, because I bet we'll learn a lot in the process. And there

Lewis Goldman 4:44

are definitely some distinct differences between B2B and B2C. And then there's a third one, which is B2B2C. And actually there's a fourth one, which is hasn't been as leveraged, which is B2E. So use. Your employees as ways of building your business. But I would say that I grew up in B2B, B2C marketing, so consumer based marketing, and I found that it's a lot easier to go from consumer based marketing to B2B marketing than it is potentially going the other direction. But you're absolutely right about the diversity of clients. I mean, just to put in perspective, currently, I'm working with a pet food company. I'm working with a SaaS based platform geared towards advertising agencies and other companies that are dependent on advertiser sponsorship. I'm working with an insurance company. I'm working with a law firm, so a whole variety of different types of categories, and there are a lot of things that you can apply from one business to another, and I think that's one of the things that, frankly, provides an advantage for doing what I do, because I can bring that sort of fresh perspective and maybe an idea or a tactic that normally wouldn't be thought about in a particular industry. Yeah, I love that.

Samir Balwani 6:05

So, so tell me a little bit more around how a fractional CMO is different from a full time cmo and and when would somebody benefit from having a fractional CMO?

Lewis Goldman 6:15

That's a great question. Same here. I think the first thing is you have to act like you're the full time CMO. And so when I'm working with clients, and it's I'm not putting on an act, I really feel this way. I talk about we, when I'm talking about the company, these are the things we're trying to accomplish, etc. And I own the numbers. I own the goals. You know, in the case of some of my clients, I'm literally running a business for them, and so I'm responsible for the P&L that goes with it. Understanding the client's objectives, particularly their financial objectives, I think, is paramount to success. And I think one of the things that differentiates the two is your learning curve has to be faster as a fractional CMO, and you have to find a way to make an impact quickly. Old boss once told me that, you know, if you're it's okay to knock over some gas stations on the way to robbing the bank. So if you can get those quick wins while building towards, potentially game changing wins to help accelerate growth. That's a good thing and an important thing. I think the other thing that's important is understanding the target market, the pain points of the customer, and the problem that your product or service solves for them, and then applying that. I think the big advantage for bringing in a fractional CMO is that the companies that I work with, generally speaking, are in a position to bring in somebody with somebody my levels of experience, experience can help substitute for time. Samir, I can do things faster than somebody who's doing it for the first time or learning on the job. And as a result, you know, a company using, let's say, you know, 10 or 15 hours a week of my time I can get done in many cases, what you know, a 40 or 50 hour a week of a more, you know, Junior and less experienced person can get done just because I know the shortcuts. I know how to kind of figure things out faster. I know how to potentially execute things quicker.

Samir Balwani 8:19

It's so funny you say that list, because I always tell people, the to go from point A to point B is going to cost you the same amount of money. It's just, do you want to do it over eight weeks, or do you want to do it over four weeks? Just, really just depends on where you want to, like, how you want to do it. So, yeah, I mean, I agree. I think the the the benefit of experience is so understated. And there's this concept, and, you know, we work in e-commerce, and we work in digital marketing and and then this idea of, oh, well, it's digital marketing. It's all new. Like, why does experience matter? And then you realize, while the top line tactics and the way we do things may be new, the underlying foundational business acumen, marketing fundamentals, is all the same, and how you manage and manage people and manage a business is where you're getting the benefits of experience. Now

Lewis Goldman 9:14

that's absolutely true. I think there are some fundamentals that can be applied, but the tactics and technology does change. You have to stay abreast of it. You know, what I've found is, and this is particularly true of the size and the types of companies that I work with, what I can provide is sort of a framework for how to approach growing the business. I don't even want to call it marketing. It's really, for example, I don't do marketing plans. I do go to market plans, right? And same here. The difference is a go to market plan is, how are we going to grow this revenue at a significant rate, 2030, 40% a year? That might involve marketing tactics, that might involve distribution partnerships. Maybe. Can work with someone to resell your product or service or or you can, you know, use influencers to create a distribution network that you might not have access to. So there's a lot of opportunities that you can build off of to build your business that aren't necessarily sort of classic, you know, advertising and other tactical marketing approaches.

Samir Balwani 10:21

Yeah, I actually think the other thing about experience that gets overlooked is your perspective and point of view is so much broader. I think one of my favorite things is when we, like, look at a junior market, or someone just starting in the market, or even sometimes, like new directors, right? They have this myopic view of marketing, and if something's failing, it must be marketing. It must be something I'm doing. If I just change our conversion rate a little bit, or if I change our messaging, it's going to change. And they just don't have the perspective to be like, actually, it might just be the product. It might be merchandising. It might be like, it might be how we're going, like, competitive pressure. And it's they sometimes forget to take that step back and look more broadly and holistically. So I think experience is

Lewis Goldman 11:05

key, yeah, and it does have to all work together. I think one of the things that you know, smaller companies can fall into is thinking tactics are the way to build a business, and that's why I'm such a such a stickler for really understanding what are the key objectives, what are the strategies you're going to use to accomplish those objectives? And then under that, after you figured those two things out, then what tactics are you going to use? I've seen too many cases where there will, you know, somebody will say, hey, why don't we sponsor this event? Or, you know, why don't we start up a PPC campaign, you know, and not even think about, okay, well, what keywords are we going after? Where are we going to send them to? What do we want them to do? You know, thinking through the strategy behind that is so important, I think, to a successful marketing strategy.

Samir Balwani 11:56

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's exactly right. So you said something earlier on that I thought was really interesting. And you said that fractional CMOS have to really go through the learning curve of understanding a business faster than anybody else. And I think that that is pretty accurate. And so one of the questions I have is, when you get put on a new business, when you're starting to work with a new client, how do you figure out what's wrong, what the opportunities are, where to go next, and how do you do it all without rocking the boat so much

Lewis Goldman 12:27

that, yeah, that's it's definitely a challenge. So the first thing is really to understand what the business is, what the product or services that they're providing, who the target market is ideally, who the ideal customer profile is, and if they don't have that information, that's one of the things you got to sort of tackle early on. And then, most importantly, what is their pain point? Marketing is really. 80% of marketing is really about just understanding what is the pain point of the target customer, and how does your product or service solve that pain point. 20% of marketing is creating something that people just have to have. They may not have a specific pain point. They just have to have that diamond, or they have to have those flowers, or whatever the case may be, but the vast majority of marketing is really geared towards solving pain points for people and understanding that. And that's a two way street. It's not only what the pain point is, but which target market is feeling that pain the most? Because that's got to be the bulls eye of your target. So understanding the target market is the first step, understanding the product and how it relates to that is goes hand in hand with that. And then from there, it's assessing kind of what's going on. I always treat, you know, everyone that I interact with as if they are the expert in the particular area that they are covering. And you have to work with people within companies in a way that's non threatening and that also is supportive. And those two things really go together. So, you know, I'll start by listening. I think that's an important first step in terms of really kind of understanding what's going on. What are the dynamics of the company. Understanding the culture of a company is very important. Are they a mission, driven company? Are they more of a bottom line, you know, driven company, and understanding that helps frame how you should approach interactions with folks. You know, one of the nice things about being a consultant is is that you're a consultant, so some people are more comfortable maybe revealing concerns that they might have about, you know, management or other areas that they might not be willing to share if you were, let's say, their full time boss, and then you have to kind of figure out the right way. And again, this comes from experience. Amir, how do you manage that communication, and how do you manage and potentially build or mend those interactions so that the company can be more effective in terms of growing so if. Goes back to that psychology background. You know, I've been fortunate enough to work in some very large companies and had a lot of training. I've done Myers Briggs probably half a dozen times. I've done a bunch of different areas. I understand that people approach how they interact differently, and understanding, you know, what that type of person is and what's going to make them respond is important. So I might have a client that's much more analytical. So when I'm trying to express maybe a new positioning or a new creative idea, I'll put it in more analytical terms. I'll use data to support what I'm I might be working with somebody who maybe is more intuitive and more creatively oriented. In that case, you know, I may give them some various options, or give them some analogies on other types of creative that would be similar to the types of product or service and what we're trying to accomplish. So it's really understanding how people kind of like to interact and how they're comfortable and helping and working within those comfort zones. Does that make sense? Yeah,

Samir Balwani 16:02

that's perfect. It's really interesting. I can't help but notice the fact that you left corporate because of the politics, and yet you sound like a master of managing it internally with your body. So I do, I do find that pretty funny. But, you know, I think the, I think you are. Like, you know, as an agency, we have to go through the same thing, right? Like, how quickly can we onboard into a new business, understand what their their pain points are and and luckily, our purview is very distinct, right? Like, we need to understand the overall business because of how they make money and how we interact with them, and what matters to them. But luckily, it's just media from our end, but it is really some of the similar things around what matters to that client. Why do they want to do what they want to do? And helping guide them through this idea of helping them figure out the answer, versus telling them the answer is, like so important so they feel bought in on it also, but like that means that we are able to do a good job then. But you know, one of the things that does come to mind, kind of, as you're going through this, you're probably coming up with, you know, 100 ideas, and you're seeing hundreds of opportunities, but the reality of the situation is They probably brought you on as a fractional CMO, because resources are limited, and there is only a certain perspective around how much we can actually do. How do you figure out where to start and what's going to have the biggest impact, both for the client to trust you, but also for the business itself?

Lewis Goldman 17:32

Yeah. So for the clients, trust me, that's that whole idea of the quick wins, knocking off the gas station on the way to the Yeah. Usually I'm able to identify within the first 30 days, an immediate opportunity. So, for example, there's a client that I'm working with where it seems like their PPC, their pay per click performance, is not delivering what it should be. And, you know, just doing a really a fairly superficial dive, there were some fundamental things that could be changed, landing pages, keyword selections, you know, etc. And so what I try to do is get a quick win early on, so that the client feels a comfort level and we build sort of a level of trust. You're really talking about the issue of resources, and it's it varies depending on the client. Some clients have nobody in marketing. Other clients may have a junior person or two in there. Some clients have a person who, you know, they put into marketing, but that's not really kind of their area of expertise or interest, understanding the strengths and weaknesses of sort of the current team and who's available and maximizing their strengths and helping them maybe build to address the weaknesses, as well as identifying opportunities to bring new resources in, whether that be agencies, whether it be consultants, whether that, you know, ultimately great to Bring in full time hires is part of, you know, part and parcel of what I need to do on the staffing standpoint, in terms of, you know, execution, the biggest challenge, usually, is in terms of, you know, media budget. I've yet to work with a client that had an ad on the Super Bowl. So, you know, you're usually dealing with modest budgets. But I think the myth about marketing is that you need a kind of big advertising budget to be able to grow the business. And I know it's a core thing of what query does, but there are other ways to grow the business. I already talked about distribution opportunities that they may not be thinking about. That's one way social media can be incredibly powerful way to grow your business. It's not free, but it is. It can be much lower cost, and you know, if you're successful and if you do it right. And SEO is another example of a way and a search engine optimization, a way of making your site being the first one that comes up for people who. Are looking for a particular product, service, what we refer to as lower funnel, you know, or funnel prospects. Yeah. I

Samir Balwani 20:07

mean, I think one of the things that we and, I mean, you and I have worked together, so you've heard my team say this to you too, of is we'll, we'll help clients understand when they're over invested in media, and help push money away, because there is a diminishing return, and there's only so much that you can do, and there are other elements of it that are huge opportunities, things like direct mail, I think, are really valuable, and a lot of brands are undervaluing it, and can actually help the whole business as a whole. So, yeah, I I love the way you think about it, both in terms of the short term wins versus long term building and kind of managing resourcing accordingly. Yeah,

Lewis Goldman 20:50

direct mail is a great example of something that you know kind of is old and has become sort of new again. Yeah, you know it was. Everybody's been predicting the death of direct mail for 20 plus years, and now it's so unusual to get something physical in the mail that it's become, you know, a lot more effective than it used to be, especially with, you know, younger generations, because they're just not used to getting physical mail well. And also, I think the

Samir Balwani 21:18

the world of storytelling is back in a big way, and catalogs do a really good job of storytelling. Yeah, yeah. So that's awesome. Well, I do have one last question for you, and it is one that I think is unique. You are uniquely able to answer, and it's so you come in as a fractional CMO, and there's probably a CEO and a CFO and other like leadership team members at this stage. They haven't hired a CMO, and it's they're kind of starting to build their trust in marketing, but aren't fully trusted in it yet, because they don't they haven't allocated the resources to it yet. How do you get them to understand the value of marketing? How do you communicate the benefits of marketing and what you're bringing to the table and what you're able to deliver on?

Lewis Goldman 22:06

Yeah, that's a great another great question, and one that I think sort of my experience helps a lot with. There's a line from silence the lambs, where Hannibal Lecter is talking to agent Starling, and talks about you have to understand what the person covets. What do they covet? Understanding the perspective of the CFO, the CEO, what makes them tip tick and what they value, and then putting what you want to do from a marketing perspective through their lens, the way, in a way that they will, that'll resonate with them, that'll kind of fit with kind of the way they look at things, their worldview is a work, I think, is really important. I think, you know, probably my only superpower is I have this ability to analogize and be able to take sort of complex, you know, ideas and approaches, and put them in terms that sort of the CEO will understand. So I'll give you a quick example. I was working with a ready to wear women's clothing company, and I was really leading their efforts into, you know, kind of moving them into e-commerce, and helping them build out their direct to consumer business. The CEO did not understand digital other than social media, and didn't really understand, like, how are we going to sell stuff through the internet? Doesn't make sense to me. So what I laid out for him was thinking about his website like a store, because he got stores because he'd been selling his product in stores for, you know, 30 years. So I talked about, you know, what are you going to put in each aisle? What are you going to put at the end aisle? What do you want people to see when they first come in? And through that, I was able to help him understand how his website was should be laid out, and how important it was to invest in that, to create that customer experience. Because he knows how important the customer experience is in a store. So that's kind of one of the approaches with the CFOs, which I love to work with. With CFOs, because they want the business to grow, and the only way the business could grow, and the only way they don't have to cut costs is if the top line is growing. So I put things through the lens of an ROI, and okay, we're going to spend $1 today for you to get $2 tomorrow, and here's how we're going to be able to do it. And kind of laying out that story and explaining that story to them makes them very supportive of, kind of my efforts. So that's really kind of been the approach that I've taken working with different departments and companies.

Samir Balwani 24:40

I love that, because I agree with you. I think talking to CFOs is fun, because as long as you can talk their language and help them understand marketing as well through the process, they're always open to the idea of, okay, I'm excited to invest in this, but you better show me a return, right? You better show me the return. And that's all well and good. The CEOs are always good. Really interesting, because I have experienced in my time is there's two types of CEOs. There's the CEOs are very practical and pragmatic, and look at it as like a resourcing conversation and and they'll sometimes ask, like, okay, are we doing this? Should we be investing that in R&D instead, or in people and instead? And like, I love those. But then every once in a while, you get a CEO that is like, I just want big ideas. Just give me big ideas and and I always find those to actually be more dangerous, because it's always, it's big idea today, and then I gotta go talk to the CFO right after this. Yeah, that's one of my least favorite requests. My other least favorite request, even more than that, one is, how can you make something viral for social I feel like the that is a blog post waiting to happen. It is 10 questions. CMOS, hope to never hear

Lewis Goldman 25:53

definitely on the list, 100%

Samir Balwani 25:57

well listen. Lewis, I always love chatting with you. I know that we could chat on for hours, but thank you so much for joining us. If someone wants to find you online, where do they go to learn more about you?

Lewis Goldman 26:06

Just go to TechCXO and www.techcxo.com, and they just put my name in and I'll come up. I think that's techcxo.com/lewisgoldman Lewisgoldman, they should be able to find

Samir Balwani 26:22

me, yeah, and I'll put it in show notes, so it's easy for people to click off to. But again, Lewis, thank you so much for being here. Oh, thank

Lewis Goldman 26:27

you for having me. Samir, this has been a lot of fun.

Outro 26:54

Thank youfor tuning in to this episode of Chief Advertiser. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe at ChiefAdvertiser.com. Share the episode with others who might find it valuable and consider leaving us a review. Your support helps us bring more insights with each episode. See you next time.